8.25.26 Wonders of Technology; Deluxe’s Adria Liss on Home Buyer Protection; Long Bond Chatter

Robbie Chrisman Welcome to the Chrisman Commentary, Daily Mortgage News Podcast. I'm your host, Robbie Chrisman. Topics on today's episode include technology that helps versus replaces, why LOs are talking payment and not rate, and my interviews with deluxe's Adria Liss on how the Home Buyers Privacy Protection Act is reshaping mortgage marketing around privacy, compliance, and smarter targeting. Here, take a listen, do a little preview. Robbie Chrisman Since the Home Buyer Privacy Protection Act has been enacted, how can lenders preserve targeting precision without violating consumer privacy? Adria Liss Well, they can work with us. Robbie Chrisman Good, I like that. Adria Liss We've identified these what we would call restricted attributes. We've also identified certain documentation that's needed in order to access this data set. So you can't just come, you can't just go and say, hey, I I want to target this information and not have any related contractual material underneath the covers, right? There is a process to that. In addition, by leveraging us, we've identified these restricted versus non-restricted attributes. And therefore, it's all in front of them. We help consult these organizations to ensure that all parties, including legal, their compliance divisions, and of course their marketing divisions are aligned with what is truly accessible, what's not accessible. And we work then and correspond directly with our sources, and we ensure that everything meets and is aligned properly so that they can feel good about marketing. Robbie Chrisman Thanks to Experian for sponsoring this week's podcasts. From lenders and landlords to employers and consumers, Experian helps connect the lending ecosystem with data and insights needed to make faster, confident decisions. Lead a smarter housing journey with Experian, and you can learn more at Experian.com slash mortgage. Robbie Chrisman Technology. Zillow and Redfin settled their FTC antitrust case as we figured they would, and certainly technology was involved. With the increase in artificial intelligence, many teachers have gone back to having all writing done in classes, handwritten, or with an electric typewriter. Would parents rather have their child learning something in class from the instructor or taking that time to write an essay? Students lose much more than grammar skills when they use AI to write. In healthcare, critical legal questions are emerging. Who's responsible when inaccurate advice causes harm? What's the potential liability? Do disclaimers protect AI companies? Why is proving causation difficult? Can existing injury laws possibly keep pace? For lenders, the question of implementing technology results in a help versus replace scenario. I've never heard an AI vendor talk about replacing employees, but instead leveraging the capabilities of the existing staff. It's old news that yields on 30-year U.S. bonds broke 5% last week, a level not seen since before the financial crisis. Most of us know that the Treasury bought bonds in an attempt to lower yields. It worked for a day, then yields went back up. Long rates face sustained upward pressure from widening deficits, surging AI-related corporate debt, and a shift from central banks to leverage private investors as Treasury buyers. America's worsening debt problem, 40 trillion is a very big number and has 13 zeros, reflects decades of fiscal inaction. Treasury increasingly relies on short-term bills and long-end buybacks to manage weak demand rather than addressing the underlying deficit. Sure, this strategy may temporarily suppress long-term yields, but it risks pushing up short-term rates, forcing greater Fed intervention and ultimately leaving higher taxes and spending cuts as unavoidable, painful adjustments if markets lose confidence. It's worth noting that the next major move in bond markets appears less dependent on treasury buybacks and more on whether growth, inflation, risk assets, and ultimately the Fed can overpower the trajectory of government finances. For today's interview, we wanted to welcome to the show Deluxe's Adria Liss to talk about how the Home Buyers Privacy Protection Act is reshaping mortgage marketing around privacy, compliance, and smarter targeting, making data governance and adaptability key competitive advantages. She's a strategic sales executive at Deluxe and has worked in the lending space since 2004, helping top 100 lenders develop successful data-driven marketing campaigns for retention, cross-sale, and new customer acquisition. She works strategically with all business units, helping them gain more product revenue. Also helping lenders identify tactical data elements and current customer and member data as well as prospects and applying them to specific loan product marketing offers. Robbie Chrisman I want to start by talking about the Home Buyers Privacy Protection Act or HPPA. Many listeners know it went into effect in March of this year, and it amended the Fair Credit Reporting Act to restrict credit reporting agencies from selling mortgage trigger leads unless specific consumer consent or loan origination conditions are met. And I don't want to say that it's faded to the back burner, but the Road to Housing Act has gotten a lot of press recently. And so maybe people kind of said done and dusted with the trigger leads. Everything's good on that front. But I want to ask you here, have we seen it reshape mortgage customer acquisition since March? What's kind of shifted in terms of the the landscape since it was enacted? Adria Liss Yeah, sure. Although it saw a lot of press until when it went into law. So it has been something that our clients haven't really been talking much about in the uh industry. How it's reshaping is slow right now. It has hurt some and the benefit has been on others. And so if you have a servicing portfolio, you are loving it right now, loving the lot, because you now have complete access to the triggers, the mortgage triggers, whereas if you're an originator and you're not servicing, well, you don't have access to that anymore. And I've been doing this for many years since 2004. I've been in this industry serving mortgage customers of ours, FIs, lenders, originators, brokers, etc. And the main focus and strategy for these organizations from the time that I started has been mortgage triggers. And it's worked. So when the law went into effect, and we've known about the law, right? We knew about we knew this was out there, we knew this was something back in 2018 when it first really started to gain momentum. It was always there as a, hey, it's out there, but no one really thought it would actually turn into anything at that time. Not until 2025 in September, when we heard that this was actually signed. The bill was signed by the president. So at that point in time is when everyone really stopped and said, wait a minute, what? So we work with uh many different uh supplier sources, three of which are the major credit bureaus. And so we had to quickly work with these sources of ours in order to identify, you know, what is it that the law or how are you interpreting the law? And how can we get those that are not servicing a consumer other ways to access and get similar results as they were uh getting before? So it's been a uh slow road. We've been working on this for literally uh we were working on it for six months nonstop, and the interpretation of the law was still being found in September. And so we had to work with and and deal with that. How how is this being interpreted? What are the things that we need to restrict? And how can we incorporate those things or or those attributes, if you will, to enable those that don't have a servicing book to still get in front of consumers and not hurt or or delay their marketing activities. Robbie Chrisman So interesting because the guillotine came down in March, and yet there's been kind of slow adoption, even though people knew it was kind of it reminds me of we have UAD 3.6 coming here in November when it comes to appraisals, this new uniform appraisal form. And even though people know it's coming in this industry, they still are like last-minute scrambling after the proverbial guillotine drops. And so it's just kind of it's a it's a endemic of it's been an interesting road. Yeah, is the law still you mentioned it was open to interpretation. Is there still interpretation that that's being sorted out, or is it is it crystal clear at this point? Maybe that maybe that's uh uh too simplistic of a question. The answer is it's it is what it is, or are people still interpreting it in different ways? Adria Liss Uh it depends. So the interpretation has been clearly identified by the sources themselves. And so that has transitioned into enabling uh certain documentation to be clearly identified if an end user or a mortgage uh company wants access to those trigger leads. But the interpretation is held really at the mortgage organization themselves, right? They are responsible for interpreting the law and interpreting what they can and can't do. We can't give, nor can our sources give any legal compliance advice related to this law. However, the core attributes that have been identified that are what we would call HPPA-restricted are and have been identified with the main sources of this data. And therefore, we deluxe have been able to work with that information and develop another way, another path for these mortgage organizations that were so used to accessing the triggers in the past, we've identified a path for them to be able to access data so that they can get in front of people who have potentially a need for a mortgage transaction. Robbie Chrisman Let's talk about that path a little bit. What does a truly compliant borrower marketing strategy look like under the HPPA these days? Adria Liss So a compliance strategy is to where Deluxe has enabled this and identified these core attributes that are related to a real estate transaction. So deluxe has a huge, vast data lake where we're not only sourcing from uh the major credit bureaus, but we also source from many other compiled data assets. So we've identified those in connection with the major sources, those attributes that are what we would call restricted if you're not leveraging a servicing portfolio. And by the way, if you are leveraging a servicing portfolio and you're not doing trigger activity today, you're missing out. Definitely something that we've heard more interest in for those mortgage organizations that haven't ever really tried to use triggers, which are few. But that is something that, you know, we do absolutely suggest that mortgage organizations do, if you have a servicing book, definitely leverage it, use it as much as possible today. However, for those that don't, something that we've built is where they can access these non-restricted attributes where we've identified a path and a way to create a model. And that model is leveraging information that is compliant against HPPA. That model will allow them to target consumers that meet underwriting, because underwriting is what it is. You can target for underwriting and apply this model to give them the likelihood of someone being in the market for a mortgage, whether it's purchase, whether it's refi, cash out, HELOC. There are multiple ways to do this today. And also it's interesting because not many mortgaged companies have been leveraging what we call life events, uh a pre-mover activity, someone who put their home up for sale. This has gotten more interest. Therefore, that path is actually something that we actually suggest to leverage for potential purchase opportunities. Robbie Chrisman What long-term data and privacy trends will reshape mortgage marketing? I guess I'm asking you to pull out your crystal ball here a little bit. Maybe we have a preview of that with what's transpired over the last five or so months. But we'll going further into the future, how do you how do you see some of these marketing trends being reshaped? Adria Liss Yeah, so it's interesting. Before I talked about the mortgage industry, the the biggest, most used data assets have been triggers. And now that that's gone away, what we're finding more of is this leveraging models to help identify people with the likelihood of being in market for a mortgage. And this has been done with consumer lending organizations for many, many years. Uh, however, mortgage marketers haven't had or needed to do this before because they had that trigger source. So now it's getting these mortgage organizations uh more comfortable with leveraging a model. What is a model? How do you create a model? How can we customize the model to be more of ours and help promote people who are likely to not just be in market for a mortgage, but help promote people who are likely to respond to Ming. In addition to that, we continue to see direct mail as the number one response indicator when you're doing acquisition marketing. So it is something that's different in the mortgage industry. We're currently in a hey, just learning and consulting stage with many mortgage organizations, how it works, how it's built, what's put into it. This is where mortgage marketers are going. And that's really where we see the most success today. Robbie Chrisman I want to know what's going to separate the winners from the laggards in the post-HPPA market. And I will head you off before you can go there. Deluxe.com if you're looking for more. Excellent URL, by the way. Deluxe.com. Holy smokes. Nice job getting that. I'm sure that's worth a pretty penny. But in your opinion, what will separate the winners from the laggards in this post-HPPA market? Adria Liss Well, the winners will be doing this now. The winners will be having the conversations with their marketing parties, uh, whether internal and or external, they need to start talking about this now. What are our options? What are our options? Really asking those questions of those entities that they work with. How can I gain access to this compliant way to market uh acquisition? If they're not doing it now, then they should be doing it as of 2027. This will soon be the way to go, as I suggested before. And if they do it now, they will be in mailboxes first. They will start to see their ROI come back in. And if they're not doing this today, they should definitely uh start to incorporate conversations with their marketing people. Robbie Chrisman At the very least, anecdotally, have you heard of companies that are still violating HPPA, but maybe the the justice hasn't quite caught up with them from the CFPB or most companies, from your estimation, they've kind of fallen in line, but they're looking for more uh precise ways to target. Adria Liss No, the latter. Robbie Chrisman That's good. That's good news. Adria Liss Yeah, fall fallen in line and or are just not marketing at all. There is a way for them to market. Maybe they don't know that right now. I don't think anyone's really talking about this out there today. And so there is a way for mortgage marketers to market with a non-service portfolio like what you were doing before, if you were hosting leads and/or people that you have talked to in the past, and/or people that you have converted in the past but sold off the loan, or just pure prospecting, people that you've never spoken with before. There is a way, Deluxe has identified a way that is compliant, and it's important for them to start learning more about this and uh getting these things in place, whether they're leveraging, we call it the in-the-market model, which is HPPA-compliant, and or we're building a custom model for them that's HPPA-compliant. There are ways for mortgage marketers to do this, and we suggest that you start now. Robbie Chrisman If people aren't talking enough about this, and we're talking about this today, and there's a platform here. Any closing thoughts or other things that you think are worth mentioning, things people might be having oversight about that that would be good to bring to their attention? Adria Liss So people aren't talking about this. Um I don't know why. It really is interesting because I think this is just my opinion, that these organizations maybe are afraid to talk about it. We heard so much. About it. It was all over LinkedIn. Trigger lead ban, trigger lead ban. And then boom, when it happened, nothing. And it's it's truly interesting to me because I'm wondering, well, what are we doing wrong right now talking to you? Robbie Chrisman Normally, normally, yes, people have done wrong when they're talking to me. So that yeah, I'm glad you picked up on the trend there. Adria Liss But I I personally think it is time for us to start talking about this and getting the mortgage industry more comfortable with still being able to access this type of data, pre-screen data, without being afraid that they're doing something wrong because the tools are there, the information has been deeply vetted with the core sources. And so, and even though it's a little dramatic, in my opinion, it's there, and you're able to access it. So I do suggest that it's time for us to start doing this. And let us not forget that the consumer lending industry, specifically card personal loan, they've been doing this all along and they continue to do this all along. So why can't a mortgage marketer do this? And again, it's just, I think, getting the organizations themselves, although they have and they need to discuss internally via legal compliance teams, they need to become more comfortable. And the only way to become more comfortable, in my opinion, is to talk to credible institutions like deluxe, where we can help them understand the core of really what this means, the reality of what they can use, what they can't use to help them become more comfortable in this environment today. Robbie Chrisman Well, yes, I'm certainly happy that we were able to have this conversation. Plenty of wise words in there. Deluxe.com for people looking for more information. Adria, I really appreciate the time. Thank you. Adria Liss Thank you, Ravi. Robbie Chrisman The housing market is increasingly bifurcating into ownership markets where incomes, migration, and housing supply make the monthly payment work, and renter markets where high land costs and regulatory constraints keep homeownership out of reach. Millennials still strongly want to own, but are adapting through smaller homes, longer commutes, lower cost metros, and dual incomes, while emerging solutions such as shared appreciation, employer-assisted housing, and co-buying are expanding the toolkit. Lenders have stopped defining affordability by home price and down payment, and instead focus on monthly payment and the structural factors such as income growth, migration supply, and innovative financing that determine whether ownership is actually attainable. Today's economic calendar kicks off later this morning with June's FHFA housing price index and July's S&P Case-Shiller Home Price Index. We will also receive July new home sales, August Consumer Confidence, results of a $69 billion two-year treasury auction, and remarks from Richmond Fed President Barkin. We began Tuesday with agency MBS prices better from Monday's close by an eighth to a quarter, the two-year yielding 4.21, and the 10-year yielding 4.66 after closing yesterday at 4.70%. Let's wrap up with a joke and some housekeeping. That there's a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers. Robbie Chrisman Thanks to Experian for sponsoring this week's podcasts. From lenders and landlords to employers and consumers, Experian helps connect the lending ecosystem with data and insights needed to make faster, confident decisions. Lead a smarter housing journey with Experian, and you can learn more at Experian.comslash mortgage.